Going Out with Outgoing

This is a conversation between Brett Gui Xin and Del Hoyle, (designers-at-large and collectively known as Outgoing) and me (Chelsea Cardinal). We met up on a muggy July afternoon to banter about design before Outgoing embarks on their second residency at Cardinal Gift Shop from July 24-30, 2024.

Photos by Nina Davis.

CC: When I'm telling people about Outgoing, I always describe you as a duo of industrial designers who work across a huge variety of mediums, materials and disciplines. Does that sound right?  

Brett: I feel like the description changes from day-to-day. 

Del: Well, we come from, like, interiors essentially.

Brett: Del comes from fine art and interiors. I'm, like, fashion and then craft blended into one. 

Del: I think industrial kind of covers it, yeah. When we first started we were calling ourselves publishers cause we thought that would give us a wider umbrella—because everything’s numbered and it would allow us to escape definition but it actually just led to more questions and more confusion so we kind of dropped that.

Brett: Yeah, but we kept the numbering system.

Del: I suppose ‘designers at large’ covers it

Brett: That's a concise, simple answer for you. 

CC: What number are you guys on right now in the catalogue? 

Brett: 19. We have a lot of things that haven't been numbered. Yet to be published, to be uh made public.

Del: Basically once we've photographed it and it goes on the inventory, then it's solidified. But we have at least four or five things kind of just awaiting photography and we number everything from products to events, like the first shop residency got a number that was OG 17 Outgoing / Going Out. It gets a name, it gets a number. It's important to have a name because it would be a fucking nightmare without it. We were on about that with someone recently and they've worked with someone who does things only with numbers.

CC: I was trying to mentally list all the materials Outgoing works in, between the two of you, and I came up with fabric, wood, glass, plastic, clay, leather, tassel, resin. I’m missing some.

Brett: Audio, video, photo. Did you say metal? 

Del: There's not much metal in there really. Plastics across the board in some way. I don't know, we're kind of open. I think a big part of Outgoing was to give us something to encourage new skills, like glass is a new thing that Brett took on, and then finding ways to roll that into what we do. It's like bringing the skills that we have with the materials forward but as a means to encourage new stuff and a lot of stuff that we make—we actively collect material so we use a lot of scrap, but we're not always explicit about that. 

Brett: Yeah, we're not like a fully sustainable practice.

CC: That's similar to my mentality with the shop. It’s not zero-waste or striving to be per se but there’s a personal philosophy in reusing stuff.

Del: Yeah, we're magpies, definitely. 

Brett: Yeah, and I think that reusing things is par for the course, you know? Where it's always like, oh, I have all these offcuts and how can I turn this into something? How can I reuse this material or use it in a different way? 

Del: Or an idea presents itself through having a stock of something. You've lived with it for months and then you're like, oh shit, that's what we need to do, that’s what needs to happen with that. I think that's one way that certain ideas come. Our home is like the basis for a lot of the work that we do, like this is really annoying in our house, this is how we can make it work better oh and we could actually make that out of this material that we already have. Then we live with it for a bit and then it develops into a thing, like a product that we put out. So it's kind of like there's all these different input points from skills, to material to our own domestic needs and then from there it's just freewheeling. 

The glass stuff is a good example of material lead where it's a new thing that Brett's taken on and then constantly the skill level’s stepping up and up and up and then it's like oh what else could happen with that and we'll have a discussion and we'll just start kind of holding stuff together and be like, oh, I wonder if we could get it to do this or do that. 

Brett: A direct example is the incense holders that you have now at the shop, I started putting legs on them, so, you know, that's like the next generation. You start with this little thing and then that breeds another idea by just being curious and seeing where else you can take it. 

Del: Yeah, and like pushing the skill and the technique in tandem with the ideas.

Brett: So the next gen of the incense holders will be at the pop-up/residency. We like the idea of the evolution of a thing but then we look at them and then we start thinking about how could we then develop that to another place outside of it being an incense holder and where else it could go.

Del: Yeah, so we're working on like a wider project at the moment that's less product driven and more research in a way that involves a lot of glasswork that's a bit more experimental, it's a bit more open-ended. So I think that's kind of where we're at now, it's like continuing to develop product but then taking the ideas that kind of led to that product and applying them to something that's like a bigger picture, maybe more design studio-y. And using that as a means to develop new ways for the two of us to work together. So it includes a lot of drawing, collage, and then like working with the materials but in a more prototyping model kind of way and that's going to be in a show in England in October. So we're kind of simultaneously now trying to push that side of things as well where we can take what we've learned in the control tests for products to do more experimental work for galleries but then that'll come full circle and the stuff that we learned from the experimenting will then develop. I think that's like, the main ambition. is like how can we use the studio as a means to keep encouraging what we're doing and keep it fresh and develop and like one thing leads to another. Sometimes that'll be how we photograph something or making a video and then it's like oh we made a video we should make some music to go with the video and things like that so it's like keeping that open-ended curious kind of point of view it's like art school forever kind of.

CC: It's sort of like world building. That's how I think of Outgoing, kinda building every part of the world you want to live in.

Brett: Yeah, definitely. 

Del: And like working from the object out rather than the interior in. When I was studying and working within interior design, a lot of the time it was from the environment in, but you're working with a client or something. And with this, it's like, we're going the other way. Cause we're not quite sure what the environment is. So we're like fleshing that out and it keeps things encouraging and fun and fresh and we're able to be nimble so we can change direction and everything's potential and I think we like that. 

CC: What's a material that's common ground for you two? You each have sort of your own disciplines that you've brought to Outgoing. Is there somewhere you overlap? 

Brett: Well, I guess I would say, as of like June, so it's very recent, but we've started doing 20 minutes of drawing together every day where we draw the same object or the same scene just in our house and the intention is to turn that into a book or prints later. 

Del: Yeah, it's like going to the gym where we get to concentrate on something and study a very specific part of our home and 50/50 we draw something we've made or we draw an object. We drew a seashell the other day but it's situated within the environment and then we take the drawings and that's how we develop a lot of stuff. I feel like that's the main overlap. Drawing as a shared language because we actually are pretty separate in other materials. I mean Brett’s handy in the woodshop. 

Brett: Yeah, but I wouldn't say that I feel confident alone in the woodshop. 

CC: Is there anything you have built where each of you executed a different part or a different aspect of it? 

Brett: I think we do a lot of collaging together. Yeah, so we made this series of planters that have wood frames and the colored inlay that Del has been working with and then I made these woven baskets for the plants to like sit in and they attached to these frames. That was like, pre-Outgoing.

Del: Yeah that was kind of where it started. It was cool because it was like, all right we want a plant to be like this high and we want it on wheels and that was like, the brief. So then it was like okay we need a connection point and it made sense that the textile element, the softer element, would hold the plant. So then my job was to give Brett a healthy foundation for it to come off, but then equally, Brett had to then have integrity in what she was doing to hold the plant and hold water, and so we were working on a common ground, but it was still an exquisite corpse kind of thing. And this new work that we're doing is kind of taking that same point of view. We’ll talk about connection points a lot. And even if one of us is the lead, we go to one another for advice.  

CC: You can sort of fill the art director role for each other, which can be a relief sometimes. To have someone say “here are the parameters” and that simplifies things. That can be hard to do for yourself.

Del: We get to assist one another but then also where if I was on my own I'd take a shortcut on a certain thing I know I can turn to Brett and she’ll be like oh, we can actually do this thing and it becomes this much more thoughtful, exquisite element and then that informs the rest of it, so it's nice. Just saying an idea out loud sometimes you can be like oh no that's fucking stupid like that's such a wrong move whereas if you didn't say it out loud you'd drive yourself nuts. 

CC: Right, yeah, because you have like this comfort and openness with each other, where there's no shame in any idea. 

Del: Yeah, it allows more privacy to make your mistakes. And that comes back to drawing as well, like drawing on top of one another's drawings. 

Brett: That was a...that's hard for me, but I'm working on it.

Del: Yeah, that's from like architecture school. As soon as it was out and shown to someone it was free game that it get drawn on and it stings a little but now I'm like, I want it. 

CC: It’s good to be able to let go, particularly when it’s in the name of r & d.

Del: There's a thing about defacing something. It’s kind of like all bets are off so let's keep going and there's nothing to lose kind of thing and it comes back to that encouraging element I think that's something that I really strive for. On the back end of how we work we want it to be encouraging for ourselves so we're learning new skills or pushing our skills some way but then on the other end we kind of want to imbue that into the object itself or the interior where it has an encouraging nature to it.

So like the lamp that we came up with you turn it against the wall and then you get these color fields. And you can create this ambience to fully change your space with one little move but then you can turn it back right around and then it's more illuminating and brighter light so it can facilitate more activity around it. 

Brett: I think this freaks people out sometimes, the open-endedness of it. People like to know the specific use and you know it's a foot stool or a pillow or it's like a prop or whatever.

CC: There's some education and mind-opening happening when people interact with a lot of the objects and pieces that you guys make. Where you don't necessarily always know exactly what it does at first glance, but then it's this wonderful discovery of the purpose of something and realizing how it functions.

Brett: Yeah I think that feeds into the world building element as well. If the world is predicated on curiosity and play and open-endedness and kind of reevaluating how you use your house in many ways. 

Del: It's harder to move a wall but you can populate it with stuff to change a space very quickly with light, sound, texture, things like that. So I think that's a thing where we seem to just naturally move toward those kinds of things and the stuff that we get excited about is often very open to interpretation, be it music or a movie or another piece of design or art.

CC: Are there materials that either of you are about to get into, like new material explorations that you're thinking about but haven't yet started on? 

Del: There's the Dust Bowls. So we've been saving a lot of waste, like specifically sawdust and like any kind of dust from sanding and then like cotton scraps, sewing scraps and all this kind of thing and we did some very preliminary tests quite a while ago combining that with paper scrap and paper pulp to start casting forms. So, we've been like casting this mixture of waste essentially just with water. The fibers become the structure. Mixed within the sawdust—I process aluminium and then like plastics and things so there's like flecks of all this other stuff in there. I've been putting dry flowers into the bags as well and stuff like that. Because we've been collecting flowers for a separate work that will come in the future. 

Maybe about 10 or 12 years ago there was all this about new eco material and it was just like a bunch of crap in resin. But we thought, all right, let's just like boil it down to the base elements, which is pressure and water. And then we put them out in the sun to dry and bake essentially. The early test was super successful and it's such an involved process that we kind of were like, well, let's just keep collecting scraps as we work. And now we have like a well of scrap for some point in the near future. That's a thing that we're looking to move into. We've lived with the two tests that we made for eight months now and they've not broken down yet.

CC: Do you use existing bowls for the form and press it between two or what are you using to form them?

Del: We use the plastic sphere that's like from a gift, you know, like where you get a toy inside. We made it very rudimentary. We took apart a bird feeder because it had a nice dome and we’ll use that for the next test.

CC: What’s the best thing you’ve scavenged? Or the most memorable experience of getting something home like either dragging, rolling or carrying.

Brett: I've carried furniture alone on the subway like a maniac. I've gotten so many good things over the years. I got this really fabulous plastic coat rack. It accordions out from the wall and it's bright blue. I mean, it seems simple but it's beautiful. Definitely from the 80s, you know, and I think we're gonna turn that into a display for some jewelry stuff. I'm trying to think what else there is that's not incriminating. I mean...because I've done a lot of work—we both have—for institutions. Yeah. Where you're asked to throw things out…

CC: When nobody knows the difference.

Brett: The other day, somebody threw out a bag of cleaning supplies that were all brand new. 

CC: That shit's expensive. 

Brett: I know, and I was like, I'm gonna take this. And there's not really anything that could be wrong with them from the street, like who would mess with cleaning supplies? What did you do, pour bleach in it? Great, now I'm extra clean.    

CC: I want to ask about color. Outgoing uses a lot of color so this might be hard, but if you had to name or describe the Outgoing signature color palette, how would you do that?

Brett: I think it's, like, primary and then including every other color.

Del: Yeah, I think we're open to it. Yeah, well, we're very clearly open to it, yeah. 

Brett: I think the one color that gets put on the back burner the most is purple. 

Del: I have a problem with Purple, I just don't think I can do it very well. Everything else I think is free game. It can be a sticking point between us though. Our sensibilities with color are very similar in terms of like say our appetite for it. Brett definitely pulls me up on my use of color quite a lot. 

CC: What do you mean by that?

Brett: Yeah, I think our approach to applying color is different and I think Del prefers a challenge and sometimes I think the better course of action is beauty and Del often makes things look uncomfortable to my eyes. 

Del: I think I always like to put one in that breaks the balance. Yeah. Because I like the thing that it does to your eyes and your brain. 

CC: What kind of color might that be or what sort of color combo? 

Del: I think it's like, where you have a set of colors that are all within a similar hue, then drop one in that's from a completely different world. So then you get this very harsh, because for me it's like, it brings a weight and it's like a compositional thing in my head and I like that friction but I appreciate Brett's point of view on it and it's not always apt to do that. 

Brett: I’m not always against it. 

Del: Brett's not always against it. But it is funny because we will, not argue, but we will debate doing something.

CC: Color is so intuitive and it can be hard to justify. I'm Interested in how that comes up when you're collaborating. Is there a color or a few colors that you would say are necessities in the Outgoing color palette? Brett did said primaries.

Del: Yeah, primaries, I think there's that like straight out of the tube kind of thing you just use. But then, you’re (Brett) attracted to neons in a way that I'm not but I like that you do. 

Brett: Yeah, I like really bright, like saturated, vibrancy. Things that make your eyes kind of like, you know, I don't know what's the word for that, but it's like a feeling. Makes your eyes vibrate or sing. 

Del: We learned that word at that exhibition last week. 

Brett: Did we? Oh, we did. We went to the Sonia Delaunay exhibition. It's at the Bard Graduate Center in the Upper West Side. I’m looking the word up.

CC: She did fabric painting and interiors, like wallpaper and stuff.

Brett: The word is Simultaneanism. Simultaneous contrasts, or something where you put the complementary colors next to each other and then your eyes like, it creates a sensational optical effect. 

Del: I think it's just whatever suits the idea for the most part. 

CC: It's also connected to materials and color expresses itself so differently with different materials. I'm thinking about the neons, like sometimes certain materials are just available in a set color palette.

Del: I really like the blues you get with plexiglass, but mainly when you put it next to wood, with the inlay stuff, I like that with the wood, because you can't get blue wood, so then you get the kind of warm tone of the wood, but then you put the blue next to it, but it's plastic, so it's a warm blue, and there's a nice thing that’s super pleasing when I'm applying the oil and the wax on the end of it and then it all kind of becomes cohesive and you kind of, like, cement it as a thing. I'm always trying to push that if I do that colored inlay for people. It's like, let's get the blue in because it looks good next to anything. 

CC: Have you perfected the inlay process, Del?

Del: It's a very meticulous process. Takes two or three days depending on the size of the project. I changed it recently, actually. Slightly changed a couple of steps. Doesn't necessarily save much time, but it's fun because you essentially make a brick of it and then slice it. Like deli meat kind of thing. Yeah, so I like adhere it to a block, cut it one way and then glue them together as a sheet. Which is nice because then you can start playing with mirroring and patterns and stuff like that. I could get lost in that for a lifetime. So yeah, it's fun. 

Del: We're actually developing some house numbers. I made house numbers for our apartment using an early part of that technique and then formed numbers out of them and we're kind of in the process of finishing that as well. We needed numbers because someone had just wrote the number on our house in, like, chalk. And our neighbors refinished the front doors, and it was like, oh, we'll do the numbers. Like, please let us do the numbers. 

Brett: Because we didn't want, like, junky numbers. 

Del: They were happy, which was good. It's an opportunity to make something beautiful and inspiring. Yeah, I think that's the thing with where our house comes into it, where it's like, oh, we could buy that very easily. But then it's like, oh, that could be quite fun to actually, fuck it, let's make it. Yeah. And how would we do it? Like, let's not replicate. Let's, like, come to something.

CC: How did your new Beach Dazzler towel come about? 

Del: We were looking to dip our toe into merch in a way and having something manufactured because we make everything ourselves. 

Brett: Yeah, the towel is the first thing that we've had manufactured that isn't directly made by one or both of us. So that was an interesting process to start learning about. 

Del: Brett was like well we have a name so we can have merch. We often think about ourselves as a band in many ways and so we're like, yeah, bands have merch. Let's have a beach towel. It felt universal in terms of not dealing with sizing like with garments. And it was also nice to play with as a thing. We made a video using it. Took it to the beach and filmed it a bunch and then make music for the video.

Brett: It’s called the beach dazzler, um, like referencing dazzle camo and also mirage-like heat wave lines and it's creating this optical illusion.

Del: And it's dazzling and it's also dazzle on the beach. It gives it a character right? Yeah, yeah it gives it action. 

CC: Naming stuff is fun. I mean that's, like, a whole other life giving ritual when you design something. 

Del: It's like another material. 

End.

Installation shot from Outgoing's first exhibition, Buzz-Up.